Is there a Kelvin mirror universe?

All films that take place within the star trek's kelvin timeline, from Star Trek 2009 Picture to Star Trek Beyond
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marsh8472
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Is there a Kelvin mirror universe?

Post by marsh8472 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:26 pm

If the crew configure their transporters or take a path through the bajorian wormhole accordingly then travel into the mirror parallel universe from the Kelvin universe, will this mirror universe be a different one from the one they traveled to from the prime universe? Or does the one mirror universe act as a common place available to both the Kelvin and prime universe?

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Re: Is there a Kelvin mirror universe?

Post by Jenny » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:19 am

That's an interesting question. To my knowledge/understanding of alternate timelines (which may be flawed, I'm no physicist) both the Kelvin and the Prime timeline equally exist within what we refer to as the Prime universe. If, for example, someone from the Mirror universe traveled to the Prime universe, in which timeline would he or she appear? My theory is that our universe traveler would appear both in the Prime and the Kelvin timelines (as well as any other timelines like the Klingon War timeline from TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"). What we see in TOS: "Mirror, Mirror", however, is not "conventional" universal travel, but rather a replacement of the mirror characters with the prime characters. Since the Kelvin-Enterprise can't be at the same location the Prime-Enterprise inhabited in "Mirror, Mirror" there is no way for the mirror characters to cross over into the Kelvin timeline. But later when Mirror-Bareil "beams" over to the Prime universe, according to me theory/understanding, he would both appear in the Prime timeline, the Kelvin timeline, the Klingon War timeline and all the timelines the Krenim created in VOY: "Year of Hell" and VOY: "Year of Hell, part II". Anytime any version of Bareil would return to the Mirror universe a different timeline would start to exist.

What do you think?

(Also, first post :D)
Hi :3

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Re: Is there a Kelvin mirror universe?

Post by marsh8472 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:48 am

Jenny wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:19 am
That's an interesting question. To my knowledge/understanding of alternate timelines (which may be flawed, I'm no physicist) both the Kelvin and the Prime timeline equally exist within what we refer to as the Prime universe. If, for example, someone from the Mirror universe traveled to the Prime universe, in which timeline would he or she appear? My theory is that our universe traveler would appear both in the Prime and the Kelvin timelines (as well as any other timelines like the Klingon War timeline from TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise"). What we see in TOS: "Mirror, Mirror", however, is not "conventional" universal travel, but rather a replacement of the mirror characters with the prime characters. Since the Kelvin-Enterprise can't be at the same location the Prime-Enterprise inhabited in "Mirror, Mirror" there is no way for the mirror characters to cross over into the Kelvin timeline. But later when Mirror-Bareil "beams" over to the Prime universe, according to me theory/understanding, he would both appear in the Prime timeline, the Kelvin timeline, the Klingon War timeline and all the timelines the Krenim created in VOY: "Year of Hell" and VOY: "Year of Hell, part II". Anytime any version of Bareil would return to the Mirror universe a different timeline would start to exist.

What do you think?

(Also, first post :D)
Hey not a bad theory I have heard similar theories before. That each time travel event just creates new universes. A physicist probably wouldn't know anything more about this than we do. I tried inquiring physicists about this online here https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/t ... um.638371/ Without a way to test it, all people have to go on is unverifiable guesses :AndorianHappy:

That's true, the crew replacement in "Mirror, Mirror" is a complication. But I wonder if having both versions from both universes beaming to the other's universe at the same time was necessary or just a coincidence in that episode? What are the odds of both crews leaving and coming back at the same time without being able to coordinate the exact times to transport? And yet they did some how

Some challenges to this theory that I've made before are the way Voyager was able to shield themselves from changes in the timeline in "Year of Hell" by creating temporal shields. The reply according to the new universe theory would be that Voyager actually traveled to a new universe. And when the krenim super weapon erased a species from time they were actually just traveling to a new universe and did not harm that species at all..

I thought that mirror-DS9 was orbiting Bajor and yet Bareil was able to beam there some how? How would mirror-Bareil know where to beam to? I wonder if DS9 even exists in "Yesterday's Enterprise", we could expect Mirror-Bareil to beam into empty space in that timeline if DS9 does not exist. And when the krenim weapon erased a species from time they were actually just traveling to a new universe.

The downside of the theory of is it makes the plots less entertaining when they're trying to preserve timelines when they actually are not :AndorianLaughing: ( VOY "Future's End", VOY "Timeless", VOY "End Game", TOS "City on the Edge of Forever", DS9 "Past Tense", DS9 "Children of Time", ENT "Storm Front", Star Trek First Contact) But it is what it is. This would mean that time travelers from the future don't really understand what they're doing when they travel back in time when they say they're doing it to preserve the timeline. But the sphere builders are able to identify multiple timelines as if they exist. "PRESAGE: The favourable timelines continue to diminish." (ENT "Zero Hour")

Do other timelines exist or do they share the same space-time and only exist when its their time to exist? I get hung up on linguistics when it comes to big fundamental questions like that. I think part of the solution to solving the problem is to pin down the definition of "exist". It reminds me of presentism vs eternalism. Does a moment in time 10 years ago exist just as much as the present moment in time that exists at this very moment? Maybe both presentism and eternalism are true depending on how "exists" is defined. Does transporting result in a person traveling instantaneously form one point to another or does it make a copy of them and destroy the original? The answer to the question might depend on the definition of what it means to be that person. So maybe there's room for both theories here but it's a matter of perspective like in one sense no universe exists with respect to the other but also infinite universes exist given that they are able to access them with the proper technology.

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Re: Is there a Kelvin mirror universe?

Post by Jenny » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:30 am

marsh8472 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:48 am
Hey not a bad theory I have heard similar theories before. That each time travel event just creates new universes. A physicist probably wouldn't know anything more about this than we do. I tried inquiring physicists about this online here https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/t ... um.638371/ Without a way to test it, all people have to go on is unverifiable guesses :AndorianHappy:
Yeah, it's hard to make sense of a concept that is pretty much impossible. But it's also fun. :Human:

That's true, the crew replacement in "Mirror, Mirror" is a complication. But I wonder if having both versions from both universes beaming to the other's universe at the same time was necessary or just a coincidence in that episode? What are the odds of both crews leaving and coming back at the same time without being able to coordinate the exact times to transport? And yet they did some how
Some challenges to this theory that I've made before are the way Voyager was able to shield themselves from changes in the timeline in "Year of Hell" by creating temporal shields. The reply according to the new universe theory would be that Voyager actually traveled to a new universe. And when the krenim super weapon erased a species from time they were actually just traveling to a new universe and did not harm that species at all..
Or, more distressingly, the temporal shields allowed Voyager, one Voyager, to be present in multiple different timelines at once but they only "see" the current timeline. So everytime the Krenim weapon is used from that point on there is a Voyager in that universe that moves and acts with complete disergard for everything in that particular timeline. If that makes any sense.

I thought that mirror-DS9 was orbiting Bajor and yet Bareil was able to beam there some how? How would mirror-Bareil know where to beam to?
Maybe the mirror-Kira had the shuttle prime-Bashir and Prime-Kira used while entering the mirror universe searched and thus knew about DS9's position. Though it would still be risky since DS9 could have been moved since. If they had the knowledge to transport people into another universe, maybe they transported a probe or something into the prime-universe a few days earlier to check where exactly to place Bareil in order to not kill him.
I wonder if DS9 even exists in "Yesterday's Enterprise", we could expect Mirror-Bareil to beam into empty space in that timeline if DS9 does not exist.
I think it likely exists since IIRC Cardassia wasn't involved in the Klingon-Federation war and could continue to mine Bajor of its resources.
The downside of the theory of is it makes the plots less entertaining when they're trying to preserve timelines when they actually are not :AndorianLaughing: ( VOY "Future's End", VOY "Timeless", VOY "End Game", TOS "City on the Edge of Forever", DS9 "Past Tense", DS9 "Children of Time", ENT "Storm Front", Star Trek First Contact) But it is what it is. This would mean that time travelers from the future don't really understand what they're doing when they travel back in time when they say they're doing it to preserve the timeline. But the sphere builders are able to identify multiple timelines as if they exist. "PRESAGE: The favourable timelines continue to diminish." (ENT "Zero Hour")
Yeah, it is sad but I think it could also make for a really good story. I mean, imagine the usual time travel plot, our heroes race to the time portal to send one of them into the past to avert their current timeline. And then once that person entered and they expect everything to fade away nothing happens and they realize that all they have done was to create a new timeline with maybe less problems but still haven't solved theirs. (Note to self: write fan fiction)
Do other timelines exist or do they share the same space-time and only exist when its their time to exist? I get hung up on linguistics when it comes to big fundamental questions like that. I think part of the solution to solving the problem is to pin down the definition of "exist". It reminds me of presentism vs eternalism. Does a moment in time 10 years ago exist just as much as the present moment in time that exists at this very moment? Maybe both presentism and eternalism are true depending on how "exists" is defined. Does transporting result in a person traveling instantaneously form one point to another or does it make a copy of them and destroy the original? The answer to the question might depend on the definition of what it means to be that person. So maybe there's room for both theories here but it's a matter of perspective like in one sense no universe exists with respect to the other but also infinite universes exist given that they are able to access them with the proper technology.
Yeah, stuff like this also goes way over my head.
Hi :3

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